Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW1 - I'm not sure what advice you seek. You have laid your cards on the table and tried to reason with your husband who has made it clear as day that he doesn't care. In his mind, he makes more, and that's what matters (I guess he forgot the "partnership" part of marriage!) and he is not going to change. So, are you willing to live like that forever? Or are you willing to work harder than your husband, resenting it the whole way, because he has other good qualities? Only you can answer that.

The only workable suggestions I have would be that he hire a cleaner to clean up his mess. You do not say you have any kids so if the cleaning were done by a maid, your chores would be more manageable. Or you could explore finding a different job with a higher salary or less work hours. But would you still resent your husband, or would you see it as an acceptable tradeoff?

LW2 - Ah, well, good thing you wrote into an advice column. Tell these people yourself, you passive-aggressive complainy-pants.

And by the way, I find poop to be very interesting and I'm not alone. I would share more details about it if it were socially acceptable!

Since these people are unlikely to a) read Annies, b) see themselves in your letter, and c) desire to change their behaviour in d) a way you consider acceptable, you should probably just skip that site. Instead, give them a call to ask how they are doing. You can hang up on them if they give you more details than you are comfortable with.

LW1 - suggest you live apart. Stay married but each of you live in your own space, be it apartment or condo or house, and then you can keep it the way you like. It doesn't sound like you have kids which would complicate the situation. If living alone appeals, then live alone and get together when you want to be together.

LW1 - the main thing wrong with your situation is that your husband is paying for someone to do his chores, while you have to do yours. Tell him that just as he's paying people to mow the lawn, clean the gutters, etc., etc., he needs to pay someone to do the housecleaning and all of the other things you're doing. This is totally reasonable; he's the one with the money. And also he needs to pay his share of the food and household supplies. It's time to stop presenting things in terms of your "feelings," hoping your feeling as you do will sway him. Instead, present it as a requirement, and a condition for staying married.

Kai Archie's suggestion is also worth considering.

Kai: If LW1's husband really doesn't care how neat his living area is or what he eats, your idea might solve the problem. Let him live with his slobbiness, and let her live in the neat environment she wants and deserves. However, I doubt it's just a mismatch in their standards, because he's willing to pay people to do some of the chores. What he seems to want, and what he's getting, is a grossly underpaid servant. Real partners devote equal effort to their lives together, regardless of how the outside world values their talents. This "good, intelligent man" sounds like a passive-aggressive jerk. A real man doesn't sit on his ass while his wife does all the work.

Re LW1: Just a thought--I wonder if, instead of going on a house cleaning strike, she's considered telling her husband that she's considering quitting her job so that she can devote all her time to maintaining the home. Maybe once he realizes that he'd be on the hook for 100% of the household expenses, he might be more receptive to the alternative of hiring a part-time housekeeper.

I admit to not knowing the facts, so what I'm about to say may not have a factual basis...and it won't be popular...but...here goes:

Is it not possible that hubby feels, after years of acquiring skills, education and working hard, while watching wife not work similarly, that he wants to reap the rewards of his labour and take it easy when he can, and that he does not feel it unfair that she work a bit harder than he?

He might resent working hard only to be left living life at the lowest common denominator.

I see this all the time. It astounds me that, to this day, young women still are not pursuing careers with the same vigor. A large number (no,not all) still want "jobettes" to hold them over just until they marry and have kids.

Jpp--
Just because the wife earns less doesn't mean she hasn't worked similarly to acquire skills and education. Social workers, for example, aren't paid particularly well, but they have at least 4-year degrees, and often Master's degrees. Same with teachers. Lawyers engaged in public service also don't make much money, but it doesn't mean they don't work hard. How hard you work at a job, unfortunately, does not always correlate to how well you get paid. She implied they both work full-time, so there's really nothing in the letter to imply that she considers her work a "jobette."
And even if she is working below her potential, and that is his attitude, he'd still be wrong. Just because someone WANTS to sit around and not contribute to the housework doesn't mean that person is entitled to do so. These things need to be negotiated. Maybe she could stand to relax her standards (although it doesn't sound like she needs things to be spotless" but he needs to respect her feelings and contributions enough to actually be in a partnership with her. How much you make (or even how much housework you do) does not define how much value you bring to a relationship.
There may be situations where a spouse would be justified in thinking the way you've outlined. However, the spouses still need to communicate and come to an agreement regarding their expectations, and not just assume that it's only "fair" for the lower-earning partner to pick up the slack. Resentment is toxic to relationships, and it should be avoided, no matter who is technically "right."

LW1-
In all fairness, how much who pays for bills is expected to be divited on a pro-rate basis according to respective income. Right now, it is.

In all fairness, the amount of houselhold chores is also expected to be divided on a pro-rata basis according to respective work hours. Right now, it isn't.

Considering your hours are the same, the amount of leisure time you both have, once working hours and household chores are done, should also be the same. It's not fair that you should come home to twice the work compared to him. It's ESPECIALLY not fair that some of the work should be dumped on you by his own carelessness.

Can't go on strike? What Jeanne said.

And if your income is so low, have you considered upgrading your skills so you can land a better job? Ditch the garden and start doing only your own laundry (for instance) to save some time you need for part-time studies. Enlist his rightful cooperation for the rest. He "pays"? Let him pay for housekeeping help then. That doesn't mean you no longer do your share, only that he pays for his, which right now he is not doing. The improved income will be at both your advantage anyway, not just yours, because your share of the bills will increase proportionally to your income.

He reads the Annies faithfully? I hope not just in the paper, where not only he doesn't have the commentary, but where the paper editors treat it like a filler and chop it down even further than the Annies themselves do. That's why I started reading it online!

The Annies were sensible for once. If that is not enough to wake him up, I suggest a marriage counsellor, but if he doesn't listen to the Annies, whose advice he allegedly respects, he's not likely to listen to the counsellor. Perhaps if the counsellor is a man?

LW2-
Unfortunately, because they cannot see who they talk to, some people treat online communications as if they were alone and doing a version of talking to themselves. There are real hands belonging to real people behind every post - be it on FaceBook, CaringBridge... or BTL.

Perhaps you should tell these people how you feel yourself, instead of writing in to an advice columnist. They're not likely to read the Annies and, even if they do, it won't necessarily dawn on them that this applies them. For you to bring the problem here does a social service by advising the public in general, but it does nothing to fix it in your own life.

While I agree with LW2 that the postings on CaringBridge about the patient's intimate medical conditions may be embarrasing to the patient, and probably should be limited to less personal information about their progress and recovery, I agree totally with the BTL posters here that the families and friends who post there probably have other things to do rather than read advice columns. Why write to the Annies about this -- talk PERSONALLY to the people who are posting on CaringBridge and tell THEM how it may make the patient feel. They are probably so happy to report any progress their loved one is making, that they don't realize it may be humilitating to them to find out that other people know all about their bodily functions in that manner.

LW1 - Wow, Annie, great advice! Tell him he has to pay for a maid. Yeah, I'm sure he'll grab his wallet and pay immediatly! In the letter, she clearly states that he feels the housecleaning his "her" job and he only pays for "his" chores.

Honestly, I like kai's suggestion of staying married but living apart. My best friend's parents do that. Her mother just couldn't take the endless clutter and him blowing money on useless stuff. So she told him she was moving out but wanted to stay married. He was, of course, livid at first. But he calmed down and now they've been living apart but married for 10 years. It works for them.

Jpp - What Laura said is right. There are a lot of careers out there that don't pay based on how hard you work. I have a career, not a joblette, but I don't make a lot of money at all. I can't afford much. But I work hard! I don't get paid to sit on my butt and twiddle my thumbs. I chose my career not based on how much money I would make but because I love what I do. Sure, I wish I could make more money, but I know if I switched careers I would not be happy.

Besides, marriage is an equal partnership. Your rank should not be determined on how much money you make. My mother makes waaaaay less than my father does and he has never - not once - ever made her feel bad for that. I have girlfriends that make more than their husbands and they have never made their husbands feel bad for that. It's not even brought up.

LW1--"Other than this, he's a good man, intelligent, fun, and he makes me laugh." Yeah, he sounds like a real gem and your letter didn't sound very funny to me. While your husband accuses you of being a clean freak, he's a penny pincher. In the back of his mind, he's accounted for every dime you've spent on the marriage versus how much he spends and has decided that you're going to make up for your shortfall by being his indentured servant. While your husband may not be doing this consciously the result is the same nonetheless. While he sits around on his duff using his excess funds to pay people to cut the grass and do maintenance on the house, you're killing yourself trying to pick up after a pig who can't muster the common courtesy to place a dish in the sink or a garment in the hamper. This is a classic case of passive aggression. The two of you need marriage counseling pronto. In the meantime tell your intelligent fun husband that all you want for your birthday and Christmas this year is a Molly Maid twice a week. If he doesn't comply, then maybe you're too tired from all the housework to fool around in the bedroom.

LW2--Some people have no common sense whatsoever. The advent of social networking and the ease at which one can share the minutia of their lives with half the world has made people lose all sense of boundaries. In my opinion, some websites are solutions waiting for a problem. My advice to you is to get off CaringBridge.org and do things the old fashioned way. Pick up the phone. You won't know about Johnny's solid stools if you're not on the computer reading about it. Moreover, most people's manners and sense of dignity and decorum seem to manifest in real life interactions where they will be able to read tone of voice or body language and censor squeamish details or curtail the amount of personal information they offer in face to face or telephone conversations. Just because you have a computer or a SmartPhone doesn't mean you have to use it for everything.

Zoe, LW1 wanted only the Annie's opinion, because she believes her otherwise intelligent husband will respect their opinion.

IF LW is reading here -- tell your hubby to that more earning power = more clout at home is an outdated belief. One'. Earning power comes and goes over the course of a lifetime, particularly so these days, often through no fault of a hard-working individual.

If he were disabled, if his company were sold, if he were laid -- or, conversely, if YOU inherited big bucks, won the lottery or got a huge promotion by way of a big achievement at work, you could end up the major breadwinner. If he continues to think as he does, you'd be justified in saying that your marriage is a luxury you, yourself, cannot afford on your salary, because the mental and emotional cost of being treated as menial labor are taking too great a toll on your relationship -- that you'd be better off seeing each other from separate residences.

Re: Zoe, 1- i agree in part with what you said about telling the posters that they are posting tmi. having said that, my doctor knows not to release any information to my family without my prior approval. my family knows that i cherish my privacy in certain areas. posting information online about a good solid stool is ok if johnny doesn't mind, but if johnny has a reasonable expectation of privacy, it's out of line. if i were the patient i would be livid. i know there is nothing shameful about defecation, but i wouldn't do it where people are watching...and it is not a topic for conversation.
if you want all of your intimate personal functions posted online for all the world to see, go right ahead. but i'm opting out of having any information posted.

OK but does she visit him in the filthy house? Or does he come over to her place and trash it? Would he visit with her, make love? Or does he just want her to cook his dinner?

Re: Zoe

"And by the way, I find poop to be very interesting and I'm not alone. I would share more details about it if it were socially acceptable!"

I talk about poop too often. Usually dog related, but still, too often. We could start an organisation - PTA (Poop Talkers Anonymous). ;-D

My dog likes to eat cat-poo and is always sniffing around the park to see what she can find. She once came out of the bushes and I thought she had a bright green plastic bag in her mouth. I ran after her and she wolfed it down

<<<GULP ~ GULP ~ GULP >>>

I did my best to reach down her throat and get it out. It turns out it was a pair of childs underpants, abandoned in the bushes after a child had an accident of the Number Two variety. I had to scrub my hands at least ten times to feel even close to clean again.

We had to wait 7 days to see those pants again!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Re: LW1 and agreeing with #10 - Michelle: I never understood why married couples keep separate accounts and/or divide their bills according to their income. In my many years of marriage and my (financial) "sickness and health" my husband and I never kept our finances separate. We went through 2 years of my unemployment and 1 year of his being out of work. Currently I make more than he does, but it never occurred to either of us to start splitting the bills accordingly.
In my opinion, marriage is based on trust, and if you don't trust your earnings to your partner, then whom do you trust?

Jpp: WTF??? “after years of acquiring skills, education and working hard, while watching wife not work similarly”
Where did you get * that * from the letter?? She said they work “comparable hours” but she makes half. How dare you assume she's an uneducated, lazy woman. How sexist. I am a licensed attorney who chose not to practice law. I have a job I LOVE, but unfortunately, don't make a lot of money at. My boyfriend has his Master's in physical therapy. He works for a private company and has a percentage of ownership in it. He's also 6 years older and has been in the working field longer than me. He makes double what I make. Just like this LW. I work my a$$ off at my job, there's just not a lot of money to be made. I would be mightily offended if someone made the gross assumption that I don't work hard or am uneducated (or that somehow these are automatically linked together) because my bf makes more money. Then again, according to you, I'm probably just waiting until he puts a ring on it and I get knocked up and fat. Every girl's dream!

Ugh. I hope you're just a troll and no one's this ignorant.

Zoe and Miss Pasko:

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk!!!

If you start P.T.A., make sure Dr. Oz is a charter member, he made poop talk fashionable.

LW1-Hang on, I think this is partially your doing. Your husband doesn't mind living in a pigsty because he's NEVER THERE!!!!! He spends his time off work at the golf course, with his friends, or with the TV. If you spent your off-hours doing yoga, bowling, playing bridge, mountain biking, playing pool, painting, taking photos, etc, you probably wouldn't care about the mess either. There are hobbies you could take up that wouldn't put a huge dent in your paycheck.
As for food bills, here's a tip; bring lunch to work, and buy enough food to feed yourself. Cook only the foods you like. Put the difference away so you can build some savings for your retirement. You didn't say how old you are, but I have to wonder if your husband's finances would provide for you if he dies suddenly
I also have to wonder why you're married to this guy. If he's never home and has such a disregard and lack of concern for you, what are you getting out of it?

Jpp:

Well, SOMEONE has to do those jobettes. Unless you don't care about cleanliness, restaurants, groceries, and car washes anymore.

LW1 - I hope getting that off your chest helped because nothing is going to change. It really isn't. As far as the yard work goes (and other stuff), if he's willing to pay for it that's his perogative. Do you really care who mows the lawn or cleans the gutters or fixes the whatever? No as long as it gets fixed. Either figure out ways to work around it or ignore it but this is the guy you married. You married a guy who's not too concerned about household chores and he married a martyr.


LW2 - Did it occur to you that maybe Johnny and Mary aren't in comas and actually know what's being said? Maybe Johnny said, "Oh hell, who cares. Just tell them I'm having good bm's". That's what I'd do :-)


LW3 - OMG!! STDs!! Thank you so much for that PSA. Thank God you thought of that. You're a genius!! Who knew, huh? It's not like we hear about those every freakin' day. Thanks or coming forward, Dr. Obvious.

IK:

I think most people go into marriage wanting to be partners and wanting to trust the other, but sometimes the other person proves themselves unworthy of it and you just have to work around it or get out.

Re: IK
Re LW#1----Totally agree. I can never understand why one would enter a marriage and not consider ALL monies that come in as 'our' money rather than 'your' money and 'my' money. It seems to be increasingly common to keep separate accounts and track everything to make sure your spouse didn't accidentally get a nickel that belongs to you.
My husband always made more money than I did. It had nothing to do with the amount of education each of us had, because I actually had more than he did; and it had nothing to do with how hard each of us worked; it just had to do with the trend of paying women less than men. But our paychecks went into a JOINT account and became OUR money. Each month we each took a certain amount (the same amount for each of us) to be used as our indivicual spending money, with the stipulation that we could do as we wanted with it--------no criticism from the other person allowed. (If one of us wanted to flush it down the toilet we could.)
Now, the LW really hasn't much chance of getting her husband to agree that he is not being fair, and the fact that the Annies say he 'should' do such-and-such is totally irrelevant. He isn't going to.
So, her options are limited to putting up with it or leaving. And since she has much less money, her financial situation in maintaining a house by herself might be difficult (unless they have investments or savings, which she could get half of, and which would tick him off greatly and be really funny); he, on the other hand, will just hire a housekeeper to do EVERYTHING, not just the stuff he is currently responsible for. He will still be fine financially.
If I were she, I would still choose to leave, and I sympathize with her; but she really doesn't have much choice, and even if every one of us agreed he is being unfair, unless HE comes to see it, what's the point of writing the Annies?
(And by the way----------anyone care to make bets on which sex Jpp might be?)

LW1: While couples can work out their finances in a variety of ways, it doesn't sound like your current arrangement is *mutual*, it sounds more like he's decided that since he earns more money that he gets to decide for *both* of you what the equitable arrangement of budget and housework is. That's not right.

I'm not sure HOW you have approached this issue with him, but the fact is that you aren't happy with the current arrangement, and a loving partner would WANT to talk things out and offer some compromise. Maybe you won't get everything you want, but maybe there is somewhere in the middle the two of you can meet.

Otherwise, you have to ask yourself -- if he won't compromise at all, if he doesn't care that you are unhappy with the current arrangements, why would you want to continue living with someone so inconsiderate?

LW2: Count me in among those who is happy to know that someone is recovering but has ZERO interest in specifics about bodily functions. Wait, not zero interest, NEGATIVE interest. I don't wanna know, and the fastest way to get me to STOP paying attention to your CaringBridge site will be to post about your poop. Just sayin'.

LW3: Dr. Obvious saved my life, Rick, so cut her some slack. Without her reminders of the dangers of smoking while on the cellphone while driving without a seatbelt, I would have been in serious trouble.

For the better part of caring bridge information about MEDICAL issues of the patients--and the day to day accomplishments necessary for their getting better, maybe a poop star IS important. My neighbor had a kidney transplant in Aug. YES. It was important that he peed. And the color of the urine. Because the old kidneys are not removed immediately, all information is pertinent. If the kidney had been damaged physically or infected, etc they would have been taken out during the first surgery. Why, I am not sure. It was done at MAYO Rochester. So I don't doubt the best doctors in the world did it.

Pruess over the info you don't want to hear about. This includes well wishes and the prayers invoked by the same well wishers. Usually these sites are to avoid the repetitive phone calls to all by posting 1 place. They are not meant for everyone to read, esp if you want to be critical. Heck, Aunt Mildred's Christmas letter can do the same thing. It is sharing of information.

My swimming partner and her family kept all posted the same way--upon the birth of their grandson at 24 weeks gestation. And the next 2 months until his death. Every day the poop and pee made us cheer.
So skip over it, like the same with posts here you have issues with. Just skip it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LW1: Sit down with the 'pig in the house'. Tell him hired help is coming. Whether it is YOU or someone else, cleaning barns or pigstyes are going to cost him. Figure what you do, ask a service to give a quote on staff coming in to do the same. Divide up what is HIS and what is YOUR mess. You cover your cost or do your own cleaning so that hired staff takes care of his crap.

What is interesting is to toss a few things into the washer to make a load. Hope it is his good white shirts for work and his red sweatshirt.

This is passive agressive behavior but he started it when he demeaned you to hired status. His control over you. Since you are the cook, make foods YOU like, new recipes with ingredients you know he hates. (My husband hates GARLIC but does not have allergy reaction, JUST CAUSE. He does not know what garlic I put into food. And it tastes good. I am the one with food allergies and so i make sure that is not the issue.)

You could also get totes to toss his mess into--garbage and dirty laundry--let him do it.

Bet his mommy would still wipe his butt if he was at home. My age 8-10 all my boys did laundry. And hung it on the lines outside. And my grandchildren at 5, 9 do it. And pick up. When my boys clothes hit the floor and not picked up, it went into Mary's Place box--homeless shelter in Minneapolis. They never got to take the item back. OH, when taking church youth trips there to work, they had to take the boxes with their clothes. Called PICK IT UP OR IT IS GONE.

My middle son lived in a house with 5 other guys in college. 3 of them were from 'home' and 2 were strangers. BUT the house set rules of how it had to be cleaned and what days such and such was done. Including toilets. So as they went along in their week, they kept it neat so on THE DAY there was not much to be done. 10 years later, the impact is still with him. Flush, wipe up messes, put things away.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Miss Pasko, Allie, the German Shorthair loved to steal things, esp the baby socks. And you would wait till you say it come through in the yard. She goes through the trash in the bathroom or kitchen (separated for recycling) and picks out her paper towels and kleenex. So my yard pick up has alot of those too. She is not into the dog chew things--nor chooses things other than paper stuff now. Socks got bigger. It was her connection to the baby and the sock was the easiest to steal. Allie turns 11 in a couple months. Guess she could have been a trash dumper or worse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to the lady with man-child. After 37 years I STILL have my own checking account. In another state I grew up in. Oh, we have the account where his check goes it, IN MY PURSE TOO. And the household account comes out of the cupboard when we need something big from that. Having divided checking accounts allows money into each for different things. I also have my ONLINE purchase checking account. Anytime an online purchase is made, I don't use credit cards or debit, I put money into what I call my EBAY-PAYPAL account. So that online purchases are not looked at as no big deal. I print receipts and log them in, etc. I know where the money from the house goes, exactly.

Re: Jpp
REMARK # 6.
And when they decide to start a family, I hope HE gets pregnant first. Then he can have first hand experience of HOW MUCH IS INVOLVED. GEE, like picking up a magazine and placing an order.
Emotional worth counts for a heck of a lot--I can hear him saying--WELL IT WAS MY SPERM. Well, she could have gotten that from she wanted to as well.
A phrase heard often in the OB wing I worked in for 16 years--when the father of the baby--maybe many times--had all the answers as long as the MOTHER was following his orders.
WORTHLESS AS TITS ON THE BOAR. YEP.
This husband has set his wife's self worth at barely zero. No matter her education, her community activity, her payback to the humane race and not least her education. He may be able to sit in an engineers office, but if he can't get out of a 2 open ended grocery bag, his larger than life is a mite.
In my husband's job he runs across alot of pompousness. And just waits for them to hang themselves. He has to sign off on every single thing going on a unit (half million dollar unitI). His arguements with many a more highly educated, higher paid engineer who says IF YOU DO IT RIGHT the square peg CAN go into the round hole.
If common sense does not prevail, the Emporor STILL does not have any clothes on. No matter how many times the butt kissers tell you he does.

Re: Mike H - Well, there you have it. I guess we (well, you anyway) need her afterall. I just didn't know.

@Jpp -- I'm not going to flame you because even though I disagree with what you said, I think people may have somewhat misinterpreted what you were trying to say -- plus I want to give you credit for making a point of stating that you don't know if this is what is going on, and that you are just making a stab in the dark. If you're still out there, please tell me if my interpretation of what you said is correct. I don't believe you were suggesting that the LW doesn't work hard or doesn't work the same hours. I believe what you were suggesting is that perhaps LW has not taken the steps needed to acquire the skills that would allow her to either get a promotion (and a raise) at her current job or to get a better-paying job elsewhere, and that in the meantime, the husband DID make the effort to acquire the skills and/or education to get a better-paying job, and he's frustrated that LW won't do the same. This is not the same as suggesting that the LW doesn't work hard. So, for example, let's say LW and hubby met 10 years ago, and both of them were flipping burgers at a fast-food joint. Hubby starts going to night school (or what have you) and gets a degree in a more lucrative field, lands a job in that field and leaves the fast-food joint to go make double what he used to make flipping burgers. Meanwhile, LW continues to flip burgers. This doesn't mean LW isn't working hard. It means that, for whatever reason, she has chosen not to make the effort to acquire new skills that would allow her to make more money.

Now, assuming that I have interpreted that correctly, the fact of the matter is that if hubby is thinking this way, he shouldn't. Aside from the fact that there may be any number of reasons his wife hasn't had the same opportunity to improve her employment/salary situation (for example -- it's awful tough to go to night school if, when you come home from work, you have NO help with the housework), it still comes down to the fact that marriage is a partnership. When my husband and I met, he made more money than I did. A couple of years into our marriage, we moved, I got a new job and wound up making significantly more than he did. Then a few years later, we moved again, and he's been making double what I make ever since. At no time have we "kept score" as to who makes the greater financial contribution.

As for women taking on "jobettes" that will tide them over until they get married and have children... I'm sure this happens, but I'm also pretty sure it's not happening with any sort of regularity, as you suggest. When I was in college 20 years ago, I had a friend who was majoring in education so she could become a teacher, but her real interest was in getting her "MRS." I had to at least give her credit for being honest -- she was there to find a husband so she could get married and have children, and she made no bones about it. Unfortunately for her, she didn't get her "MRS" -- but fortunately she DID get her degree in education, and she did get a job as a teacher (and I hope we can agree that being a teacher, though it doesn't pay as well as some other jobs, is an honest-to-goodness full-time job and not a "jobette.") But she was literally the ONLY woman I knew in college who felt that way. Everyone else was very busy pursuing a degree in order to pursue a career. I didn't know a single woman who was looking for a "jobette" to tide her over until she found a husband and had children. And that was 20 years ago.

Having said all of that, I have seen quite the opposite happen. Nearly every single one of my female friends who went on to law school and became attorneys eventually quit to become full-time mothers. In at least one case, she spent more time in law school (three years) than she did as a lawyer (two years) before having a baby and deciding to be a stay-at-home mom. I think we can agree that being an attorney is hardly a "jobette." I have yet to see any of those former attorneys go back to work (but their kids are still young -- probably the oldest is maybe 10 years old, if that). I also don't hear their husbands complaining about it.

Of Poop and Caringbridge:

I respect everyone's desire to not read about poop, I do, but please do NOT bring this up with the families who are posting this information on Caringbridge. Not only do they have better things to worry about than reading advice columnists -- they also have WAY MORE IMPORTANT THINGS to worry about than whether they might be offending someone when they are writing about what is going on with their sick loved one. For a lot of these people, something as "gross" as a "good, solid stool" takes on the luster of a 40K diamond, when the difference between one stool and another can literally be a matter of life and death. Is it TMI to post this for all friends and family to see? Maybe, but honestly, I am NOT going to bother the mother of a 10-year-old boy who is battling with cancer to tell her that she is grossing me out. Seriously. And when it's a matter of life and death -- as it frequently is on Caringbridge -- I can assure you that most of the sick loved ones who are being written about don't care that mom or wife or sister or whomever is sharing this information. Why? Because they're a whole lot more concerned with living through all this.

Due to my volunteer work with a charity (it happens to be a cancer-related charity), I've spent a lot of time on Caringbridge. I am sorry that some you are grossed out. But honestly, deal with it. DO NOT BOTHER THESE PEOPLE ABOUT THIS! Yes, I'm shouting, and I know that's really rude, but I feel that strongly about this.

For the Poop Talkers Anonymous group (I'm betting the "other" PTA will NOT appreciate this!): As the mother of a six-month-old child, I have learned the importance of poop talk. My husband, nanny and I are always discussing whether or not "Sammy" has pooped. And, since him pooping or not is one of the primary keys to whether we have a good day or a bad day with him, it is vital information. And the grandmothers have figured this out, too, so it's not uncommon for one of them to call me up, and one of the first questions is, "has Sammy pooped yet today?" And yes, we've been known to go into detail about just what the poop looked like, as it does actually give us some information about how he's doing.

Having said all of that, I should note that I reserve all this poop talk for the people who ARE interested in it -- the nanny, my husband, the grandmothers. I don't generally share it with anyone else. I'm only sharing it here (this once) because of the "poop controversy." I promise I will not be giving regular poop updates. :)

DOH! That's 40C, as in 40 carats -- not sure where that K came from!

@Lisa, agreed, no need to bother the families with my lack of desire to read about poop. I just hope that people do realize that there will be a not-insignificant number of people who therefore choose NOT to follow the loved one's medical progress on such a website, though, if the information is as detailed or graphic as all that.

My support, caring, and affection for a friend or family member dealing with a serious health crisis is completely unrelated to their bowel movements.

@chris -- you are so right that people who post stuff online frequently would be uncomfortable sharing that same stuff in a face-to-face or phone conversation. I would only caution that for a lot of people who use Caringbridge, they just don't have the time or energy to be having individual conversations, which is why they use the site -- they get to tell their story once, and then everyone who knows and loves them can log in and read (or not) at their leisure. If everyone who is grossed out by some of the details in these posts starts calling them, it will basically negate the whole point of using the Caringbridge site. Having said that, I'm not suggesting that no one should ever call someone who has a Caringbridge site. But be prepared for that person to hardly ever take your call, and when they do take your call, they'll be too worn out to really talk. If you're calling because you want to lend a hand in some fashion or offer support in a more personal way, that's terrific. But if you're calling because you just don't want to be grossed out anymore? Not so much.

When the BTL has discussed Facebook, Twitter, etc., I have many times said that there is no one on the face of this earth who is so interesting to me that I need or want to know that they are "going to lunch now" and "going to the bathroom now," and "just got back from the grocery store," etc. I believe there's a whole lot of "over sharing" going on, and I believe people really do need to learn what is and isn't appropriate to be "publishing." But I give a pass to the people who are on Caringbridge. They are "over sharing" for a reason. It's not simply the whim of some self-indulgent idiot who thinks his poop is really that interesting. It's someone who is watching a loved one fight to stay alive. It's just different. I really hope people can understand that.

OK, I promise I will stop ranting about this.

@Mike H -- fair enough.

LW1, why not do a free half hour consultation with a divorce lawyer who could tell you how much spousal support your husband would pay you if you had enough of his sheets, and left? Then she could decide (1) yes, I'd prefer to live alone, on my salary and my alimony, or (2) she's going to show him how much he'd have to pay to have a woman not live with him, then he can decide if he'd miss her, or if he'd rather have a happier spouse and a cleaning service.
My husband is a divorce lawyer: he has stopped a number of divorces by suggesting that each party contribute a percentage of their income. Each spouse can put in 60% of their salary towards household expenses, for example, or the higher earner can contribute a larger percentage so that each party feels they have some independence and some spending money. He's done as much as any marriage counselor, IMHO, especially when finances are an issue.

Re: Kitty
Personally, if anyone would divulge information like that about me while I was in recovery, I would not only be humiliated but stinkingly mad when I found out (and, trust me, I would), and they'd get the very rough edge of my potty mouth. That's treating adults like infants or animal pets - "Ooooh, baby had a nice big burp and then a nice big poop today!"

@Kai Archie
Your suggestion has merit in principle, but in practice it is not one that is often workable, as it defeats the purpose of married life - a life in common. In this specific case, you're also not taking into consideration an important fact: given her income, her level would drop a few notches. All this because he insist on punishing her for making less than him? The whole point of being married being to put things in common so to make it easier for each other, she might as well divorce outright, and start looking for a man who will put value on HER as a human being, not solely on her paycheck.

@IK
Ideally, the money that the wife and the husband make should be pooled, bills paid and then the remainder divided equally - because, in an "ideal'" relationship, it is to be assumed that they both work equally hard, or as much as they both can, regardless of the money they generate. Which may fluctuate, depending on health issues and economical or job market situations.

If you "never understood why married couples keep separate accounts", then I will infer that you had the immense luck of finding one of these rare, almost unheard of, ideal partnerships. Unfortunately, with so many people (both men and women) being cheap and petty, it doesn't work that way in most cases. Money is one of the top causes for divorce.

@jpp
The woman works hours comparable to his at her job and then comes home to a full shift of chores as if she were a housewife and you think she's LAZY? Thank you very much for inferring that housework doesn't count as work.

Other things you say that put things in the same bag where it doesn't belong -
1. A jobbette is just as much work as a big career. You don't get paid more because you work more - in fact, it's often the other way around.
2. Education and paycheck are not always related.
a) Do you know how much a garbage collector, a plumber or a construction worker makes, compared to a secretary?
b) In this economy, do you know how many people with degrees work flipping burgers or drive a cab?

And BTW, the reason why so many women lack ambition in their choice of a job and opt for a jobette instead of a "career" is because women are socialised to put family ahead of career. Show me a woman who puts in the long hours a doctor must, and I'll show you a woman who's being accused of neglecting her family - if she has one.

But when she chooses not to do that and have a job that doesn't interefere with her family's needs instead, then she gets slammed and penalised because she earns less money. Be darned if you do, be darned if you don't, you can't win. (CHORUS: And people call me negative and a hyperfeminist when I say nothing in the mentalities has changed. Yawn.)

@Lisa #28: Look at you, coming in here with your “logic” and “reasoning” and “calmness” and “two sideness.” This is the BTL, not the… rational place! Take your feel goodery back to where you came from.
My sarcasm usually doesn't translate well in writing, so I'll stop and be serious. Your post was really well written and offered insight into where Jpp may have been coming from. It's an interesting perspective that, without knowing all the facts, could very well be true. I appreciate you taking the time to explain his/her post and making sense out of it. I was all riled up from his/her (I shouldn't assume it's a man) post, but I completely understand what s/he was saying. So thanks.

LW1: I'd be surprised if your husband changed just because of what the Annies said, but I hope for your sake he does. My wife and I share in all of the household work, inside and out, until it's done, and we can both enjoy some relaxing time. She and I don't spend money frivilously, but we get what we need, including some money to spend as we wish. But I don't get more, just because I make more. She needs to be happy too.
Perhaps your husband will realize that a happy and satisfied wife, is more important than him having money and time to golf, and you don't get what you need.
But I would suggest to other women not yet married, that if this is how your boyfriend is before you get married, then work it out before you get married, or expect him to be like this forever.

"And if your income is so low, have you considered upgrading your skills so you can land a better job?"

Did Lise Brouillette, the forever unemployed one, really just suggest that LW1 get a better job?

Really, Lise?

Stop living off taxpayers before you advise others on such matters.

The main issue I see here is that there are "his" and "hers" chores. Why are there not just household chores? Isn't marriage supposed to be a partnership? I can understand somewhat keeping money separate as my husband and I do that but our contributions are based on our incomes, so neither one of us suffers more then the other. If her husband is going to pay for his chores why doesn't he pay for the household chores so that neither one has to worry? Neither my husband nor I would EVER suggest that we hire out in ways that don't benefit both of us and if he hired out the yardwork he would take his extra time and contribute more to other chores because we work together. It's clear to me that although LW's husband is probably a nice guy he doesn't really view marriage as a partnership and thus doesn't really want her to benefit from anything he does. This is the "hooray for me and fuck you" attitude that we make fun of in my family. This doesn't bode well for the marriage long term and although she says she's not ready to throw in the towell over this I'd think long and hard about whether she's interested in marriage with someone that doesn't want a partnership, because this will not get any better with time.

@Lise #36
Exactly my point. I was simply saying that possibly the posters were so happy that their loved one was recovering that they didn't realize how humiliating it would be to have everyone know all the "gorry details".

Thanks to all for keeping the flaming to a minimum. And thanks to those who acknowledged (as I tried to underscore) that I had not basis for saying the situation was as I suggested it MIGHT have been; but I might add that similarly no one knows it's any different, do they?

The marriage IS a partnership (maybe). He might contribute more money, in exchange for her doing more housework. That doesn't seem insanely unfair to me (granted, not suggesting she should work her finger to the bone--nothing that extreme).

I still see MANY women accept "jobettes" while they seek out their "MRS's"; this is not a thing of the past (and I hail from a major urban centre, and do business across NA and Europe, so don't assume me to be from small town hicksville when I say this). Somewhere along the way, we gave our daughters the idea that they should aspire not to Hillary Clinton, but to the contestants on the bachelorette. They then are surprised to see their lives develop to Shirley Valentine, not Snow White's.

As a Quebec taxpayer, I feel that Lise Brouillette should come and clean my house at the beginning of every month, when she cashes the welfare cheque that I in part pay for.

@Casey -- of course, for all I know, JPP really is a complete pig and really did mean it the way you and others interpreted it! And if that's the case, then, By God, I wish I had kept my feel goodery at home with me! ;)

I do think that what I wrote is what JPP meant, and in some cases it might apply, but (IMHO) in a much different way from how JPP presented it. I could certainly see a spouse being frustrated if s/he was the only one who was making an effort to better him/herself and better their collective situation. And this doesn't necessarily have to be financially. I know a couple who both smoked when they met. One of them quit when they had kids. The other one didn't. The one who quit always resented the fact that the other spouse didn't also quit. The one who quit felt strongly that quitting was the right thing to do because it would make all of them healthier, they could stop spending money on cigarettes, they would be setting a better example for the kids, etc., etc., etc. So the general idea behind JPP's argument isn't necessarily the sexist piggy-ness that some UNDERSTANDABLY saw when they read JPP's post.

Of course, the problem is, then JPP goes on to start talking about young women taking on "jobettes" to hold them until they can find a man, thereby killing credibility and jacking up the (understandable) feminist angst. I work with a women's group at a nearby university and therefore mentor a good number of women between the ages of 18 and 22, and I have yet to meet a single one of them who is looking for a "jobette." They all want careers. And not one of them is waiting for some man to show up and take care of them.

Heck, my son's full-time nanny is the primary breadwinner in her family, supporting her husband (a contractor who, unfortunately, is frequently out of work) and her step-daughter. A lot of people think of being a nanny as a "jobette" -- and indeed, you see a lot of college-age women working their way through school as nannies. But not our nanny. She has taken a whole host of child development classes, has earned every possible certification offered by the local DCF and by the school district (where she used to work as a teacher's aide). As far as she's concerned, this is her career and her calling, not a jobette -- and she sure as heck isn't waiting for some man to take care of her, since right now, she's the one taking care of HIM!

The women I have known who could arguably have been said to have taken a "jobette" did not fit JPP's presentation, either. These were women who HAD careers that they later gave up to be full-time mothers, and then when the kids got a little older, when they wanted to go back to work, they couldn't get back into their former fields and/or wanted the flexibility a "jobette" would offer so that they could still be home when the kids got home from school, etc.
And it also depends on how you define "jobette." Some might suggest working as a stockboy at the grocery store as a "jobette" -- but on the other hand, I know a guy who started out as a stockboy and worked his way up to be the GM of the store, and then went on to become an executive at the corporate level of the chain. He started out as a stockboy while working his way through college. Got his degree and could have started interviewing for entry-level positions at a variety of prestigious consulting firms -- but a savvy executive of that grocery store chain saw potential in him and convinced him to stick around, work his way up and get into the corporate office. It started as a jobette, to be sure, but that's not where it ended.

Re: Lisa
Although a lot of people spell it "carat", the original spelling is "karat", the "K" coming from Greek. 40C is a Celsius temperature. ;-)

(I wasn't going to korrekt you, but you asked...)

@Kim
Too many people see a "partnership" in terms of "What's your is mine and what's mine is mine". While in my personaly experience, I've seen more men think like this, I've seen women also.

On married people who split their finances, I think it is a very personal decision. My husband and I have been married 15 years and have separate finances. We have a joint account that we figure out how much we need to pay joint bills (mortgage, electric, cable, internet etc.. stuff we both agree is joint), then we both put money in to cover that. Lets say for easy math our joint bills are $1000 a month and lets say I make 60K and he makes 40K a year, then I would put in $600 a month and he would put in $400. We then have complete say with what we do with money left in our personal accounts. For the last 5 for so years we have both made about equal money and we honestly have NEVER EVER had an argument about money at our house. Clearly this works for us and wouldn't work as well if there was a MAJOR disparity in funds and we don't nickle and dime account for everything. In general we roughly rotate who pays when we go out to eat etc but we really don't track it. If we had decided to have kids or for some reason the pay checks were WAY out of whack we talked about it and decided that we would dump everything into joint then each of us would get a set amount to go into personal accounts to do with as we pleased. The problem with the letter writer is that for some reason they don't seem to BOTH be on board with their arrangement and there is a disparity on how household work is being performed.

RE: LAKE-EFFECT WIFE
WHY BUY A COW WHEN THE MILK'S FREE? HUBBY HIRES PEOPLE TO DO THOSE THINGS HE DOESN'T WANT OR IS UNWILLING TO DO HIMSELF. HE HAS NO NEED TO PICK UP AFTER HIMSELF, DO HIS OWN LAUNDRY OR ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE HE'S GOT CHEAP LABOR IN HIS WIFE. SO - PAY ALL BILLS ON A PERCENTAGE BASIS. IF HE MAKES 71% OF THE HOUSEHOLD INCOME; HE PAYS 71% OF ALL THE BILLS. EXCEPTION: THINGS USED EXCLUSIVELY BY ONE PERSON SHOULD BE PAID FOR IN FULL BY THAT PERSON. IT'S NOT A GOOD SOLUTION BUT IT SEEMS THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE DOING IN PART NOW. IT'S EITHER SHARE ALL INCOME EQUALLY OR SPLIT ALL BILLS BASED ON INCOME. THEY'RE EACH ENTITLED TO THE SAME QUALITY OF LIFE AND THIS SHOULD PUT THEM ON AN EVEN FOOTING. I'LL BET THEY'LL EITHER BE ABLE TO AFFORD A HOUSEKEEPER OR HE'LL START PICKING UP AFTER HIMSELF.

Re: John Dung--Okay, give us your phone number and address and we'll see what can be done about that.

Hmmmm... after stalking Lise obsessively on and off for a year, maybe more, and picking on her to the exclusion of any other contributions, and after insisting over and over that he really isn't crushing all over Lise, he really, really honestly doesn't like her at all...

...now J.D. invites Lise over to his home?!?

Who's really buying J.D.'s denials now? Not this boy!

@Jpp
Thank goodness (for some men--like my husband), not everyone sees it the way you do! I have a LOT more post-secondary education than my husband and make more money. He's been out of work a few times--a few surgeries, and one layoff. I know it; I think he's aware of it. But neither of us dwell on it. What we make is our money. He works in a very physically and mentally challenging job that I know he'd be offended if it was referred to as a "jobette."
The bills, all regular and irregular expenses are paid out of our joint account. All vacations and large extras are decided jointly. We both spend plenty of money on smaller extras that each of us wants--like pedicures and massages for me and car parts and fishing gear for him.
About a year ago, I decided that we couldn't really afford the once-a-week maid that did the major cleaning of our house (floors, bathrooms, ect.). Guess why I had her and guess why I miss her terribly? (Most of the ladies already know his one.) Drum roll........because when we don't have a maid, I do more housework than he does. Don't get me wrong, I'm FAR from what LW1 describes, but I definitely do a bit more housework than my husband. (And I am am counting ALL housework--indoor, outdoor, as well as household and automobile maintenance. Yep, I pretty handy all around [as is he, I just do more.) As a side note, we both work full time, but my job requires me to bring work home on top of that on a pretty regular basis, so I work a bit more than 40 hours a week.
Having a maid was one of the best things ever for my marriage, because I didn't resent doing more housework than him and he didn't get nagged. Also, I had more leisure time, thus happier wife. And we had more leisure time together, thus happier life.
Two weeks ago, I started making calls to interview a new maid. Afford her we MUST! Please wish me well!
Or, should I just let me husband know that he's the new maid, since I make more and am better educated?

Re: IK, 16-it isn't that i don't trust my husband. we have two completely different ways of balancing the checkbook. he will spend an entire weekend reconciling his checkbook to the last penny. i've seen him spend a whole day trying to figure out where the one penny is that he's off. i round up the amounts of my checks to the next dollar. i round down any deposits i make. the difference between what my register say i have and what i actually have is fairly large. there is always more money in my bank account than my check register says i actually have. we would end up divorced it we had to share a checking account. periodically we review who pays what; usually when we move or when one of us has a big change in income. but we don't discuss it each month, we just each pay our 'own' bills. i don't want him going through my register--[you paid $70 for a bra? they sell them in wal-mart for $9.95?! and then i must explain that a comfortable bra that provides the kind of support i want that i can actually fasten with non-functioning fingers is not available at wal-mart] and i don't want to go through his [you bought more books? where on earth do you plan on keeping them?]. while i don't expect every married couple to adopt our system it works for us and trust or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.
lise, 36- 'Personally, if anyone would divulge information like that about me while I was in recovery, I would not only be humiliated but stinkingly mad when I found out (and, trust me, I would), and they'd get the very rough edge of my potty mouth. That's treating adults like infants or animal pets - "Ooooh, baby had a nice big burp and then a nice big poop today!"' my point exactly. my objection to those comments are not that i don't want to read them, but does the patient know you are posting such personal stuff? if i am offended, it is on the patient's behalf.

Re: wyochic
I'm sorry but I think you're missing my point.

Theres a difference between a spouse's misfortune and one living the consequences of his chosen life.

If your husband were under-employed because he chose to party when you went to night school, or because he chose to turn down an offer at Harvard business school to pursue his real love of competitive poker (even though he'd hardly played before) or because he wanted to relax instead of "taking life too seriously", would you (and others) be so critical of my view that perhaps at this point in life he has to accept that his lot will be to work a bit more than you? That it's ok for you to hire out your half of the chores while he continue to perform his half?

All I'm saying us, before we start prescribing advice to LW, shouldn't we ask her to assess the facts first and then decide on the best course? Doesn't anyone wonder about his perspective before declaring him a lout because he (gasp) goes golfing?

If he's an ass, I'll be the first to pound his ass to the road. But wouldn't you want to find out first?
I admit to not knowing if the analogy I draw is fair. But your responses assume another set of facts with not much more evidence (other than LW saying she cleans a house a lot but not excessively).

LW1: LW and husband have different levels of clealiness tolerance. IF this husband respects his wife's need for a less cluttered environment, she may be able to convince him to place his dirty clothes in a conveniently located laundry hamper and his trash in conveniently located waste baskets. I'd also negotiate for periodic house cleaning either bi-monthly or monthly or even as an occasional treat. I'm assuming that LW is not so much of a clean freak that she would be cleaning after the maid left.

Re: Mike H

Your responses always make me laugh, as if suggesting that I secretly like someone I insult would somehow make me flustered. You're a funny guy.

Know what makes me laugh harder and longer? Reading Lise Brouillette's rude and arrogant diatribes. Yet for someone who loves to judge others, she pretty much has nothing going for her besides this sad community of internet folk.

Just sayin'.

@JD, our mutual amusement society is well in force, then, because I find it immensely amusing that you claim that it's your "negative" feelings for Lise that cause you to intermittently stalk her and toss grade-school-level insults at her.

And now to find that you have developed this rich fantasy version of Lise based on her internet posts, too... you've spent an awful lot of time thinking about her.

See, John, it's the internet: easy enough to ignore people who bug you that much. But you keep comin' back. For Lise.

I mean, really, if we're talking about "having a life" and all... gotta say, the kinds of contributions you've made in the last year don't exactly lead one to believe you've got much going on yourself, there.

By now, anyone with even moderate intelligence would realize Lise ain't gonna change for you, bro... so the fact that you continue in your futile efforts means something else is going on there, no matter how much you try to protest otherwise.

Just sayin'.

@Lise #36

There are very few "ideal partnerships" in this world, and mine is far from it, but in the matters of finances we have no issues keeping all accounts together. I have inherited a modest amount from my father, and the money is in our joint account, while I "inherited" nothing but a nightmare from his parents - an aging mother with no assets, two siblings who are making my husband's life miserable, some litigation in the family related to his mother's affairs - all costing us a bundle, and the expenses are still coming out of our joint account. I have no problems with any of these expenses.

@alien07110 #51, <<you bought more books? where on earth do you plan on keeping them?>> - are you sure you are not my long-lost twin? :) Just because of these purchases we are now keeping 2 separate credit cards so we don't have to see what we buy.

I suppose I am lucky that I don't problems regarding our finances. I know it could be a big problem leading to a divorce.

@Lise #36

There are very few "ideal partnerships" in this world, and mine is far from it, but in the matters of finances we have no issues keeping all accounts together. I have inherited a modest amount from my father, and the money is in our joint account, while I "inherited" nothing but a nightmare from his parents - an aging mother with no assets, two siblings who are making my husband's life miserable, some litigation in the family related to his mother's affairs - all costing us a bundle, and the expenses are still coming out of our joint account. I have no problems with any of these expenses.

@alien07110 #51, <<you bought more books? where on earth do you plan on keeping them?>> - are you sure you are not my long-lost twin? :) Just because of these purchases we are now keeping 2 separate credit cards so we don't have to see what we buy.

I suppose I am lucky that I don't problems regarding our finances. I know it could be a big problem leading to a divorce.

Re: EllaMae
Stop yelling.

Re: wyochick
I'm the one who coined the word "jobette" and I want to make it clear that whenever I use it, it is always in ironical mode. I personally don't think that any job is any less important than any other - it takes people in all jobs for a society to run. The stagehand in charge of lighting is no less important than the singing diva his hand is shining a spotligh on.

@jpp
"If your husband were under-employed because he chose to party when you went to night school,"
You have zero evidence that this is what the LW did. I personally brought up the possibility of her updating her skills, but none of us have any idea of her level of education, or if updating would make any difference. For all we know, she could be one of those flipping burgers with two degrees to her name for a variety of reasons. I have 2 1/2 myself, and I'm renovating vintage jewellery and toys.

@IK
In my book, and ideal partnership involves two people for whom the other is more important than anything else and who do their best to be at each other's needs' service. Rare, but findable. It doesn't mean the two components are flawless... but their good faith is.

I don't know about your husband but, from your attitude, you fit the bill of someone being capable of it.

@Lise -- I wouldn't say my hubby and I are the perfect couple by ANY stretch of the imagination, but all of our finances are pooled, and he doesn't get "more say" over how money is spent because he makes more money than I do. We both have enough sense to know the difference between a major purchase that shouldn't be made without discussing it with the other spouse first, and minor purchases (even if they are the occasional "splurge") that do not require any such discussion. We've had our share of arguments over the years, but they are rarely about money. But I do know that you are right that one of the top causes of divorce is money issues.

Mike H. said:

"See, John, it's the internet: easy enough to ignore people who bug you that much. But you keep comin' back. For Lise.

I mean, really, if we're talking about "having a life" and all... gotta say, the kinds of contributions you've made in the last year don't exactly lead one to believe you've got much going on yourself, there.

By now, anyone with even moderate intelligence would realize Lise ain't gonna change for you, bro... so the fact that you continue in your futile efforts means something else is going on there, no matter how much you try to protest otherwise."

John Dung responds:

"See, Mike, it's the internet: easy enough to ignore people who bug you that much. But you keep comin' back. For John Dung.

I mean, really, if we're talking about "having a life" and all... gotta say, the kinds of contributions you've made in the last year don't exactly lead one to believe you've got much going on yourself, there.

By now, anyone with even moderate intelligence would realize John Dung ain't gonna change for you, bro... so the fact that you continue in your futile efforts means something else is going on there, no matter how much you try to protest otherwise."

Just sayin'. :)

Re: EllaMae

And yes, stop yelling.

Lise's welfare ears are sensitive.

JPP is soooooooo wrong about basically everything he said. There are many, many reasons why one spouse may earn less than the other. Educated, professional women still often earn less then their male counterparts. Many people work in highly skilled trades for which they needed extensive training, but these jobs may not pay as much as "the professions".

Lots of times those trades and jobs that don't pay very much at all are the most physically taxing, so that spouse should probably have to do LESS work at home.

And many women work fewer hours or in a less lucrative job to raise their kids, although that doesn't appear to be the case with this particular LW.

Also, even if the the husband mowed the lawn himself, that only has to be done about once a week. Home maintenance even less. The cooking and cleaning up after meals is an everyday thing. And there are certainly a lot more weekly household chores like laundry, vacuuming, dusting, mopping, cleaning the bathroom, etc. that exceed lawnmowing by far.

As other posters have pointed out, the Annie's are wrong that spouses keeping their finances separate causes these kinds of problems. Husbands that are jerks about it like this one is what causes the problem.

Re: Lise Brouillette

"jobette" was a word I first heard years ago. Written by Gloria Steinem. I am not plagiarizing you (acknowledging that you're not accusing me of that).

I admit, I have no basis for the facts I assume. But for the umpteenth time, the posters who say or imply the husband is a pig who lived a good life while wife got lousy jobs simply because she was a woman or couldn't work more because she single handedly raised the kids etc. etc. etc. are also assuming facts for which they have no basis. So before we tell her what to do, shouldn't we suggest she examine the facts and then decide? Because hey, I MIGHT be right. It's not a rare set of circumstances I suggest might (emphasize MIGHT) be present. I've only seen it countless times in my relatively short-ish life.

I think the real problem for Lake-effect Wife is that she married a man who doesn't know how to love. It bothers her? He doesn't care. She does all the work? He makes more money. And she's willing to put up with that because he's intelligent and makes her laugh? Really?

When you love someone, you go out of your way to make their life easier, not harder. And I say that as a refugee of two broken marriages. It's my third (present and final) marriage that opened my eyes to the dysfunction that even one - not to mention two - selfish partners can cause. What works for us financially might not work for others, but we keep separate accounts, I pay all the bills, and he gives me money out of each paycheck. Never a problem. Big, unexpected expenses we split.

No way is LW1's husband going to pitch in on his own when he sees how tired she is, because (drum roll) HE DOESN'T CARE IF SHE'S TIRED. He doesn't love her. Maybe she should start thinking about what life might be like either in a neat apartment of her own, or with a man who was considerate.

Re: Jpp
Gloria Steinem was using it? Aw well, I have yet to read her, so I woudn't know - I didn't get the idea from her. I've been using it for years too, so I don't know who was first and for all I know, it's neither of us and it doesn't matter anyway - these things have a way of developing concurrently and in multiples. When I said I was the one who coined it, I should have said "here BTL", which is what I really meant. I didn't mean that I own copyright on it.
What else I said about how I use it remains valid.

@Lisa #60 - my arrangement with my husband is EXACTLY the same as yours, except at this point I make slightly more than he does. But he smiles and says: "I get to use the difference!"

@Jpp

Actually, I think you're missing my point. I was responding to your scenario, not giving advice to the LW. (In referrence to: "All I'm saying us, before we start prescribing advice to LW, shouldn't we ask her to assess the facts first and then decide on the best course?")

You paint a scenario wherein women (that according to your last post #64 you've see "countless times") avoid getting real jobs in order to bide their time until they get married and have kids. Let me refresh your memory from your first post of today:
"I see this all the time. It astounds me that, to this day, young women still are not pursuing careers with the same vigor. A large number (no,not all) still want "jobettes" to hold them over just until they marry and have kids."

I wasn't giving advice to the LW. I was speaking from my own experience in an attempt to broaden YOUR horizons--particularly since you claim that you have had a "relatively short-ish life."

So, sometimes women make more than their husbands.

Your initial post implies that if she makes less than her husband because she's a career slacker, then LW1's husband is possibly justified in his current behavior and perhaps she should just suck it up.

My viewpoint would be that people should choose careers that they find interesting, fulfilling, and rewarding. The income level of said career may play a far second or third element in career choices. That doesn't make someone a slacker, and it doesn't justify an unequal partnership in a marriage.

I would also challenge your view of people who choose family life and raising children. You seem to imply that this is also poor behavior. (Again, "...just until they marry and have kids.") Wow! I'm a working mom who would love to spend more time raising my own kids, but as I said before, I make more money than my husband. Is it so wrong for people to want to stay home and raise their own kids?? Does that tie them to a life of servitude the house and justify that role? Maybe you need a larger circle of friends/acquaintences.

@ John Dung

"Know what makes me laugh harder and longer? Reading Lise Brouillette's rude and arrogant diatribes. Yet for someone who loves to judge others, she pretty much has nothing going for her besides this sad community of internet folk."

What makes me laugh is that she's enamored you to the point where you keep popping up to read what she has to say. Love her or hate her, Lise always sparks a lively discussion around here, which is the point BTL. While she and I have certainly had our fiery disagreements, she's one of us and we're happy to have her. If this woman gets under your skin so much, then why do you keep coming back here to read her comments and then attack? Have you ever looked up the definition of "Infatuation"? It means a foolish, unreasoning, or extravagant passion or attraction to someone or something. Sound familiar?

Re: kames
Kames, I did the math on your example of the $60,000 vs. $40,000 salaries of a couple and their each contributing to monthly bills of $1,000 by each putting in accordingly ($600 and $400 respectively).
I broke things down to a monthly salary---------$5,000 for one person and $3,333 for the other. After their respective contributions of $600 and $400, one person has $4,400 left over for him/herself, and the other has $2,933--------------a $1,467 per month difference. You are OK with that? I would not be, I know, whether I was the person making more or the person making less.
What happened to 'equal' partnerships? If someone honestly don't want their spouse to be treated as well as they treat themselves, why get married? Hired help might be cheaper.
On a separate note----------anyone notice that when BLT comments are made that include a "What if this is the case?" scenario, it generally is affected by that person's personal bias? (I include myself in this, and I usually try to mention that I might be biased)--------------but it think it's nearly impossible to present a 'what if" case without it's being somehow influenced by one's own personal experiences or those of people one is close to.
Hard to just speculate with the facts given, isn't it?

Penny - Did you give permission for your calculator to be used?

LW1: To me, this is a no brainer. If he's willing to pay to clean up after him, then he should have no problem with you spending money on getting a housekeeper. Just once a week will work wonders. And invest in a crock pot. You can make anything in one of those things and you come home to a home made meal. One thing that I absolutely love is my Pickstik. It's a little wand that grabs things, so you don't have to stoop over to pick things up.


What concerns me most is that she made a point of saying that he makes more money than she does. So what? When you are married, you share everything. This guy sounds totally selfish, but apparently LW1 feels the need to stay with him, anyway. He must be really, really good in bed to put up with this nonsense.

I find it veerrrry interesting that the day Wah-chan stops posting, the Dungmeister rears his ugly head. Coincidence?

@John, your attempt at deflection is truly adorable. But you know as well as I, (and everyone else here), that I haven't ever insulted you the way you've insulted Lise, nor have I treated you any differently than I've treated any other negative poster BTL. Regular commenters can tell that you're not really that special to me, not in the way Lise is special to you.

See you, on the other hand, have been solely, intensely, rabidly focused on Lise, and Lise alone, for at least a year. That's a pretty big difference, JD, one that can't be glossed over, and really deflates your attempt to equate us.

So... nice try, A for effort, but C- on execution. You can do better, I'm sure, if you put your mind to it.

How much money you make does not entitle you to throw your shit all over the house and treat your wife like a slave.

End of discussion.

It doesn't matter how much money she makes. It doesn't matter how much education he has. It doesn't matter how much work he put into his career in order to achieve the level he's at. He gets rewarded for that by his JOB, in the form of money and benefits. Those benefits do not include a free slave.

Then there's the place you live. It requires a certain amount of upkeep and maintenance. That upkeep and maintenance should be split equally among the adults who live there, with smaller roles given to any children depending on their age and ability. It has NOTHING to do with your earnings.

Both of them work outside the home. Both of them live in the home. Both of them are splitting the finances according to their respective earning ability. Both of them need to split the home maintenance 50/50. They can pay for someone to do however much of it that they like and can afford. But the LW is NOT. NOT. NOT. obligated to take on more chores because she earns less. That's bullshit. She works just as hard as he does. If he lost his job, would he become the new houseboy by default? I'm sure he wouldn't like that and we know she damn well doesn't like it. That's because it's an unfair, inequitable division of labor that disrespects the LW's contribution. It should not be tolerated.

John Dung:

As much as you do not want to admit it, Mike H is correct. You are so infatuated with Lise that you do not know what to do with yourself. As I have asked before, why don't you come out and admit to Lise how much you admire and adore her, instead of acting like a third-grade little boy who pulls the hair of a girl that he likes and then runs away? This will be a much more effective way of demonstrating your overwhelming desire for her. It also has a stronger possibility of getting her presence near you, as your request for her to come over to your house demonstrates that you desperately want so much from her. Go on, give it a try, you cute little lovesick puppy, you.

Infrequent poster here, but I had to chime in on the finances issue from the perspective of a gay man in a committed relationship (to totally bypass the male/female equality issue).
When my partner and I realized ours was going to be a committed partnership, I added him to my bank account and he directed his paycheck there. So far, during our 6 years together, I have always earned more than he has, but we don't think about that. The money pays our bills; his debts and my debts became our debts just as his assets and my assets became our assets. We put each other on our cars, and we now own a house with both our names on it. We decide together how we spend any leftover money after the bills are paid.
My ex insisted on separate accounts. He then came into a large amount of money and inherited a house. His monthly draws from his assets were much greater than my income, and yet he insisted we would have to split the bills 50/50. This was one of the major factors in our splitting up. He also made it clear that my name would never be on the house (as long as he was alive).
A loving partnership shouldn't include scorekeeping with regard to finances. Even when my partner was collecting unemployment (while job searching), we didn't worry about whose money was whose. During that time, he did all the household chores, since I was actually working outside the home. Now that he's back to work, we split the chores, just like we did when he was working before. Heck, if it were possible, I wish he didn't have to work and that I made enough to support us both! Why do some heterosexual couples see this differently? He works and I work; our goals are common. What kind of partnership do you have if you're not sharing the rewards of your combined hard work?

John and Lise,
Sitting in a tree,
k.i.s.s.i.n.g....

"A clean house is a sign of a wasted life."- anon.

"The world needs messy people, otherwise the neat people would take over." -Pig Pen

"A messy desk is a sign of genius." -unknown

I got a million of 'em...

@limniade
Right ON!

@Also Concerned
You're right - This has nothing to do with being straight or gay, it has to do with love, with partnership, equality and with fairness. You and IK (among others) - you've got the right of it.

@Me
Oh, pul-leeze. I'm trying to eat here.

@also concerned and @Lise - I am glad that we are on the same page about partnerships and finances.

To be my controversial self, I have to add that maybe my husband and I do share the finances because we got married young and were dirt-poor new comers to this country and had nothing to lose. If I were to remarry now with adult
kids in the picture, I would definitely think about prenups, separate accounts and such.

But I am here and now, and I am still all for sharing finances when it comes to marriages.

Thanks for a lovely discussion all! It was my (almost) first time BTL today, and despite being darn busy at work, I still managed to take part in it!

Re: IK
Hey - don't be a stranger, we LOVED having you here!

@Chris
Hey - that was nice of you. Yes, we've had your differences, but for myself, I want you here too: your perspective is often interesting and, in much of the time, I actually agree with you. Peace?

P.S.: I DO like the way you put things - when I agree with you, that is. ;-D

Re: AWC--Aww......I just remembered how poor Charlie Brown (Peanuts) used to pine over the "little red-haired girl."

That must be what JD, hereinafter known to us as Charlie Brown, must be doing. Lise is his very own little red-haired girl that he'll never, ever, ever...........have a chance with.

Re: IK-if my husband is a book monster, i suppose i am to blame for that. early in our marriage, we would sit in the living room in the evenings. he would watch tv and i would read. someone on the tv would say something and he would comment in that, asking what i thought and i would reply, 'huh? i wasn't watching.' and go back to my book. after a while he decided to figure out why my books interested me more than the tv. he was hooked. i have hundreds of books. he has thousands. i only buy a book if i've already read it and know i want to read it again. or if it's a series i collect, such as dragonriders of pern. he will buy indiscriminately. every blank wall space in our house has a book shelf. our garage is wall to wall bookshelves. we have a rented storage unit down the road with more books.

i'm not sure we aren't related...welcome to the family!

@alien07110: we are definitely related! I have a similar pattern in my house, but on a smaller scale. My husband buys books all the time, but I will not allow him to buy any more book cases or spill over to the garage and beyond (working so far). I on the other hand stopped buying books because I can't keep up with my purchases, and I try to utilize the library when I can. I am trying to keep the clutter-free, and it's a relatively small house.

Thanks for the welcome!

wow, so many posts. I feel very sorry for the letter writer with the slobby husband. If that was the situation in my house my husband would pay for a housekeeper and everything else so that we could go out together! In fact he actually will when we take care of some of our debt but not for everything, just the chores that are very difficult for me due to my shoulder & back injuries because we have some pride in taking care of ourselves. My husband is a slob too but he does not expect me to be his personal servant.

When I read a John Dung comment I think of the song "Obsession" by Animotion.

LW1: This is easy to fix. Serve his meals on dirty dishes and once he stops itching from his freshly laundered clothes he'll be begging to pay for household help.

LW3: These women can sing along to, "Me, my man, and our STD." LOL

Re: IK

Re: IK
Gee, and here I thought I was the only book (nut)case... I rarely buy any more books now, unless they're part of a series I enjoy, or otherwise something I know I definitely will use. The only two rooms without books in my place are the bathroom and the kitchen. The other rooms are not completely full of shelves and there would be room for more, but, you know... Although I absolutely love books, enjoy having them available to me 24/7, and are extremely easy to find abundantly and dirt cheap, it is not an obesssion.

I'm glad to see others are sharing my passion. My family (except for my daughter) all think I'm mentally ill. They refuse to make the difference between a lot of stuff and hoarding. But then again, if it was my BROTHER owning all that... they would have no problem at all. In fact, he has a lot of them himself.